In 1979, few bands showed greater potential than New England. Locked and loaded from the get go, the young band quickly found themselves on the charts and opening up arenas for KISS. Although their following these days can best be described as “cult”, similar to fellow late ’70s curios Angel and Starz, their poppy, hook-laden spin on hard rock proved massively influential on generations to come. 45 years on, New England drummer Hirsh Gardner is paying tribute to his old band, as well as breaking new ground with an equally compelling batch of new rockers on his latest album, Third Time’s the Charm. We sat down with Gardner to discuss the events that led up to this new outing, the chances of more New England shows, and hanging out with Pantera.
Greetings Hirsh and welcome to Defenders of the Faith! How are you doing tonight?
Hirsh Gardner: I’m doing good! It’s good to see you. Nice to meet you!
It’s nice to meet you too. I want to start by thanking you for taking the time to do this interview. We’ve got a lot to talk about, but most importantly, we’re roughly a week away from the release of your brand new solo album, Third Time’s a Charm, which really fuses your past and present into one outing. When did ideas first start coming together for this album?
HG: Great question! Well, I’m always writing and coming up with ideas. I’m here in my home studio. It’s very comfortable. If I have an idea, I’ll just throw it down. If I have a nice drumbeat I feel I wanna put some music to, I’ll throw that down. This is an ongoing process. It’s been an ongoing process with me for 30, 40 years. I’ve got material that, I’ll listen to some old tracks of stuff I recorded 20 years ago and go, “Oh man, that sounds great. I can’t believe I actually wrote that!” Then, I’ll maybe take some of those ideas and throw them in with other ideas and mish mash a bunch of ideas together.
The first solo album, Wasteland for Broken Hearts, came about the same way. The second one, My Brain Needs a Holiday, same thing: Just culling different songs from different eras that I’ve been writing. This one here is a little bit different in that a few of the songs were a little bit older. Some of the songs were brand new. The album, as you know at this point, is divided in two halves. I came up with 10 or 11 original songs and then…I’ll go back a little bit.
(New England keyboardist) Jimmy Waldo and I were in L.A. a couple years ago. We were waiting for (singer/guitarist) John (Fannon) and (bassist) Gary (Shea) to show up because we had some gigs in L.A. Then, we were going off to Japan. Jimmy and I were in the recording studio. We set up the mics and the drums and all that. We said, “Let’s record something and see how it turns out. Let’s record the original version of “Don’t Ever Wanna Lose Ya” again.” I laid down the drum tracks. Jimmy overdubbed all his mellotrons and Hammonds and keyboards and things like that. Then, the guys in the band showed up. We put all that stuff away and I uploaded it to the cloud. That was that, so we went off and did all our gigs.
I’m recording my latest album, and this is probably about 6 or 8 months ago. I came across those original “Don’t Ever Wanna Lose Ya” tracks that Jimmy and I had recorded. I’m listening to the stuff and going, “Jesus, this stuff sounds great!” *laughs* The drums were really powerful and right there. Jimmy’s keyboards, of course, he’s the master of mellotrons, Hammonds, Moog synthesizers, and all that stuff. Just to have some fun, I’m in the middle of recording the new album, I grabbed my guitar and laid down some guitar tracks. Then, I put a little bass on it and sang the lead vocals. John Fannon is the lead singer on that particular song, but I’d been singing “Don’t Ever Wanna Lose Ya” in my live band, the Hirsh Gardner Project, just because it’s an awesome song and everybody knows it and loves it. I laid down the vocals and was blown away by how well it turned out.
So, I’m working with Chris Laney of Pretty Maids. I sent Christ the tracks and he’s flipping out. He’s like, “Man, this sounds great!” Chris laid down all the real guitars because I’m a hack guitar player *laughs*. Chris lays down all the guitars. He sends this stuff back to me and I’m like, “Woah!” It just sounded so good. That set my brain to thinking, “Geez, I sang lead on a bunch of New England songs. I wrote a few New England songs.” I just started recording some of those tracks again with Chris and some other friends of mine. The New England songs were turning out so good, that, getting back to my original point, I had 10 or 11 songs of my own, originals. What I decided to do was go, “Let’s do half the album New England songs and the other half of the album all original songs.”
Giles Lavery is a good friend of mine. He was coaching me and egging me along. He loved the idea of doing this split album. That’s kind of the way this album came to be. You got my 6 originals, 6 New England covers, and I’ve got some great guest artists on there. It’s kind of a long answer, but I hope I answered your question! *laughs*
No complaints there! There’s nothing I hate more than listening to an interview and then mid-answer, you’ll hear, “We have to cut to commercial.” We try to make this as longform and comprehensive as possible, so your answer is very much appreciated!
HG: Well, there you go! *laughs*
You mention working with Chris Laney from Pretty Maids, who performs on this new record and co-wrote some of the original songs with you. When did you two first cross paths and how would you describe your creative process together?
HG: It’s a great story. I get an email from some kid named Chris Laney a couple years ago. Maybe more than a couple years ago. It was basically just asking me about my relationship with Vinnie Vincent and what Vinnie and I had done in the studio back in the day. “Hirsh, what songs did you play on? Can you tell me a little bit about it?” I didn’t know, at that point, who Chris Laney was. I didn’t realize he was a guitar player, producer, keyboard player, and musical savant in Pretty Maids. I just thought it was a fan letter. I sent him back a nice note. “I played on this song with Vinnie and this song and that song.”
Then, 6 or 8 months later, I get another email from this guy, Chris Laney, and there’s an attachment to it, a song! The song that he attached was “Forbidden”, which was a Vinnie Vincent song. In the letter that he sent me, he explained that he had grabbed Vinnie’s lead vocal off the internet. Nowadays, you can actually scoop out all the instruments and lead vocals. He had grabbed the lead vocals for Vinnie’s song, “Forbidden”, which is an amazing song. He recorded all the tracks: bass, guitars, keyboards. In that email that he sent me, he said, “Would you be willing to play drums on this track?” All of a sudden, I go, “Wait a minute, this guy’s a musician. Wow, he’s an incredible musician! Listen to this shit that he’s playing. It’s unbelievable!”
What he did with “Forbidden” just blew my mind. I was sitting in the studio, cranking it up, going, “Wow, this is amazing.” So I look him up on the web and it’s Chris Laney from Pretty Maids! Meanwhile, Pretty Maids had been one of my favorite all time bands. I didn’t realize he was one of the players in the group, so I wrote him back an email right away. I went, “Dude! You’re in one of my favorite bands in the world! What’s going on? I’d love to play drums on “Forbidden” for you. Let’s do this.” So I sent him the drum tracks. If anybody’s interested in hearing it, I believe if look up “Forbidden”, it’s on the internet right now. It’s Chris Laney and me. He’s probably got some of his other friends playing on the track. That’s how that all came to be.
Now, all of a sudden, Chris and I are good buddies. We’re emailing back and forth. He’s asking me about KISS and touring with them because he’s a huge KISS fan. I’m telling him all these stories and he goes, “Listen man, “Forbidden” turned out really great. Would you be interested in co-writing some stuff with me?” “Hellyeah!” *laughs* This guy’s a monster musician and he’s asking me to co-write with him. I had a song called “Angel in the Sky”, which was completely different musically. I sent him the track that I had recorded with some new chords and a new song structure. Of course, he sends me back all of the guitar tracks and everything rerecorded. It was like, “Woah, this song is amazing!”
“Angel in the Sky”, which is the second or third song on the original side. Actually, it’s the fourth song. It was co-written by Chris and I. He’s playing a lot of the guitars. He’s got a bunch of his friends in Sweden playing all of the guitars and bass and vocals and all that stuff. The song turned out great. It’s one of my favorite all time songs now. That’s how that all came to be. It’s a great relationship. We talk just about everyday. He’s doing so well with Pretty Maids. I’m really proud of him. He’s doing great.
As a Pretty Maids fan myself, I’m happy to just see them still going at it, especially considering how sick Ronnie Atkins was these past few years. It’s incredible to see them still playing shows, and awesome that Chris was able to connect with you and make some awesome music.
HG: Yeah, he’s an amazing talent. And Ronnie Atkins, oh my God! That guy is so good! After what Ronnie’s been through, putting out some of the stuff he’s doing, God bless him. He’s a joy. Anybody who’s reading this, if you don’t know Pretty Maids, you gotta check them out. They’re amazing.
I second that. Hence the title, this is your third solo album. What are the biggest differences between making an album as a solo artist as opposed to being part of a band?
HG: It’s scary! *laughs* I’m scared to death of every note I sing and play and hit the drums on, or if I’m playing synth, bass, or guitar. You really don’t have anyone there to go, “Eh, Hirsh, not so much.” or “Hirsh, that’s incredible. I love that part. Do more of that.” With New England, John was the chief songwriter in the band. He was a great songwriter and lyricist. It was unbelievable stuff. That inspired all of us to write more and be more part of the writing proposition in the band. You always got Jimmy Waldo, who’s brilliant on keyboards. Jimmy’s a producer in his own right. “Hey Hirsh, why don’t you try this? Gary, can you play a little bit more melodic on that part?” In a band, you got that support. You really do have that support. I miss that. I really do miss that.
On your own, you’re working 10 times harder because you’re the guy who’s making that final judgement that that lead vocal is really cool, and those background vocals that you’re putting in there make sense, and the drum tracks that you’re playing are cool. That’s kind of the main difference as a songwriter, producer, engineer type person. It’s scary. That’s why I welcomed Chris so much on this third album. On the other two albums, I pretty much did everything myself: mixing, recording all the tracks and all that stuff. This one was a joy with Chris because he was somebody that could bounce ideas off me and help me out. It was great. The collaboration thing? I’m a believer *laughs*.
On Third Time’s a Charm, not only do you lay down the drums, but you handle various other instruments as well, including vocals. Were you a multi-instrumentalist from a young age, or did you pick up other instruments as time went on?
HG: Well, let me correct you on one thing. I don’t look at myself as a multi-instrumentalist. Somebody like Prince, oh my God. When I see some of the videos of him playing this and that and the other. THAT’s a multi-instrumentalist. I’m a drummer, and I’m a singer. I jangle jangle on guitar. I play a little bit of piano. When I hook up to my computer, if I want to play bass, I can play bass on the piano. To be honest with you, that’s kind of where I’m at.
When I look at people that are multi-instrumentalists, that play everything proficiently, those guys are really cool. For my purposes in the recording studio, I get it done. If I play a piano part or a keyboard part or a synth part or something like that, I’m happy to send my parts to somebody like Jimmy Waldo and go, “Hey man, this is my interpretation of a keyboard part. I want you to play it like a real keyboard player and not a schmuck like me.” *laughs* “Make it a Jimmy Waldo keyboard part.” It’s the same thing on guitar. If I’m sitting there going chug-chug-chug-chug, then I give it to my guitar player. Joe Feloni is my guitar player here in Boston. Joe is fricking brilliant. I’ll show him some of my ideas and he goes, “Yeah, I get it.” He’ll play the guitar the way it should really be played.
A lot of the stuff on the album, you’re gonna hear some of my real simple parts, but a lot of the times, I’m gonna be relying on those pros to make it sound cool. That’s part of the whole producer thing. You gotta know what your limits are. You gotta know this has to be way, way better. For instance, hopefully I’ll blow your mind with this. Bumblefoot has been a friend of mine for several years. Ron (Bumblefoot) is playing everything on “Nothing to Fear”. Ron is such an amazing guitarist. He sent me a note just recently and it got published on social media. He says in the note, “When I was 16 years old, I went to Madison Square Garden to see KISS play. New England opened the show and was the very first band that I ever saw live in concert. That blew my mind. Right then and there, I knew that that’s what I wanted to do.”
Ron’s been a fan since way, way, way back. Of course, I met him more in recent times. He played on my second album, My Brain Needs a Holiday, and I invited him to play on “Nothing to Fear” because I knew he was a huge New England fan, so I knew he’d love that. I sent him my basic tracks, which was me doing my jangle jangle guitar parts and a little keyboard part. He sent me back 40 guitar tracks about 4 or 3 days later that blew my mind. When you listen to that song, make sure you have Bumblefoot in your head because he’s doing all that stuff.
Of course, then I sent the track to Jimmy Waldo, and Jimmy played all his original New England keyboard parts, which are just sensational. Gary Shea, my bass player in New England, laid down all the bass tracks. That’s all part of the collaboration thing and knowing what your limits are as a player and giving it to somebody who could make it sound cool. That’s what we got going on with that song.
It’s funny you mention that about Bumblefoot, because I’ve encountered a lot of people who New England was the first band they saw as well, simply because they were there to see KISS. I know this was the case for King Fowley from Deceased. Is it a frequent occurrence for you to hear stories like that?
HG: Yes, and I am so humbled and so blown away when somebody tells me that. I’ve got two little stories here. One, the day after we did two nights at Madison Square Garden with KISS, we were getting ready to go somewhere else. I’m walking down 5th Avenue. Bill Aucoin, he was our manager, so his office was right there. Some young rock n’ roll kid in a leather jacket comes up to me and goes, “Oh man! I saw you guys last night at the Garden! You guys were fuckin’ amazing!” That meant the world to me. Wow, that’s really cool. Now that’s one story.
There’s another story that I had to pinch myself to believe it actually happened, but it did. So Pantera is playing in the New England area. My buddy Aaron was their road manager, so Aaron gives me a call a week before the show. He goes, “Hey man, we’re playing in Fitchburg, Massachusetts. You wanna come and see the show?” “Yeah, sure! I’d love to.” You know, Pantera is Pantera. Those guys are rock gods. I go to the show, meet Aaron, and after the show, he says, “Come on! I want to introduce you to the guys!” So we go in the dressing room and everybody’s really cool. He takes me over to Vinnie Paul. “Hey Vinnie, it’s great to meet you. I love your drumming.” He says, “Yeah man! It’s nice to meet you too!” Aaron introduced me and said, “Hirsh is the drummer in New England.”
Then, he says, “You wanna go meet Dime?” “Yeah!” We walk over and there’s Dimebag. As we’re walking up, Dimebag looks and points at me and goes, “Hey, you’re Hirsh Gardner from New England!” Woah…this guy knows who I am?! I was blown away, absolutely blown away. He was the nicest guy in the world. We talked for 20 minutes about this, that, and the other thing. He told me that night, “You guys were playing with Journey and AC/DC in Fort Worth, Texas.” We all knew Dime grew up down there. I said, “Yeah!” He says, “Well, I was there that night.” He must’ve been 11 or 12 years old. He said, “You guys were such an influence that that night was the night I decided I was going to be a guitar player, rock n’ roll star.”, and so on and so forth. Like I said, I had to pinch myself that this really happened.
Years later, unfortunately Dime got murdered onstage. I cried. It was horrible. Many years after his passing, I read an interview that he had done where he had mentioned seeing that show and that was what influenced him to be who he was. My hair stood on end when I read that article. It’s in some magazine, Circus or something like that. That just blew my mind, that that actually happened: We met, he told me that story, and he’d done that interview. It’s so humbling to know that we had an influence on people.
That’s a great thing, but all those rock guys that we played with, AC/DC, KISS, Journey, Kansas, Styx, Cheap Trick, all those guys had an incredible influence on me as I was onstage, because I knew I had to be at that level. If I’m gonna be in New England, if I’m gonna be the drummer onstage opening up for Cheap Trick, I better be that good. That was an education for all of us in the band. Get your shit together, get onstage, do your show, be a pro, and be really, really good at what you do. It was like the college of rock n’ roll, being on the road back then.
Who were your favorite bands growing up? Was there any one band or artist in particular who inspired young Hirsh to pursue music as a career?
HG: So the answer to that question is no, and I’ll explain that in a second. Going back even further than that, I started listening to swing era music because my aunt and uncle loved all those bands. When I was 4, 5 years old, that’s what was played around the household. They played the Benny Goodman Orchestra, Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich, those guys. All those swing era bands were what I grew up with. I grew up in Toronto, Canada, which is down the road from Detroit. On Sunday afternoons, I would watch Mahalia Jackson singing gospel music on TV. For me, that was like when you’re first listening to rock n’ roll, your insides get real tight. It was like, oh man, this is real stuff! Back then, that’s my real early influences.
Of course, then there was Ed Sullivan and The Beatles and The Rolling Stones and Herman’s Hermits and all those guys. That’s when I started to realize that this is what I want to do. My sister loaned me $250 and I bought a drum set. That’s when I started. You ask about what drummers influenced me. Really early on, it was Gene Krupa. I love jazz and I was in a jazz group back then, so that’s what started it off. Then, of course, I’m listening to Charlie Watts with The Rolling Stones play “Get Off of My Cloud”. It was like, I want to do that shit next. *laughs* So I started playing rock music and that’s what happened.
I’m glad to hear you shoutout Charlie Watts, because the big three of rock drummers who don’t get their due: Charlie Watts, Ringo Starr, and Phil Rudd. As far as I’m concerned, anyone who tries to dismiss those guys don’t know rock n’ roll.
HG: You got that right! Phil Rudd? Are you kidding me? I’m onstage after our set. AC/DC’s onstage and I’m stage right, transfixed on this guy. Everybody thinks what he’s doing is really, really simple? No, man. He’s doing some orchestrated stuff on those drums that are just killer. That was an education right there, watching guys like him play.
This brings us to the second half of Third Time’s a Charm, which sees you revisiting your days with new England. What was it about this specific group of songs that stood out to you and made you want to rerecord them?
HG: My focus was, “What songs was I singing lead on in New England and what songs did I co-write? Let’s start with those.” That’s just gonna make more sense because it’s my album. That was basically the choice. I’m the lead singer in the song “Nothing to Fear”. John Fannon sings the intro, but on my record, I sang the intro because it’s such a beautiful part. I was like, “Man, I gotta sing this. It’s gorgeous.” “Don’t Ever Wanna Lose Ya”, it was John singing that originally, but since I had been playing that for years in the Hirsh Gardner Project, my live band, I went, “OK, I gotta cut that song.”
Now “Don’t Ever Wanna Lose Ya”, and I think everybody out there would probably agree, back in ’79/’80, when that song hit the charts, it was the #1 most played single in the United States, second to The Eagles’ “Hotel California”. Radio & Records was the magazine that was out back then who charted all the airplay. We were getting massive airplay, but the song went to somewhere in the high thirties on the Billboard chart, which was fantastic. Then, our label folded, right in the middle of everything. That sort of put the kibosh on what we were all about.
I don’t think “Don’t Ever Wanna Lose Ya” really got a fair shake. Over the years, I’ve heard many bands cover that song. Listen to Houston; they did a great version of that song. Bronz, an English band, did as well. There’s so many covers of that song by a lot of unknown bands. I don’t think the song ever really got its due. I believed, after listening to those original tracks that Jimmy and I laid down in California, it was like, “Man, we gotta make something that’s a 2024 version of a 45 year old song.” With Chris’s amazing guitar tracks that he played, with Jimmy’s original keyboard parts and Gary’s (bass parts), I think we did. I think we hit the nail right on the head and I’m hoping that song lives a whole new life from what we did on that.
As for the other songs, there’s a song called “I’m Not Down”. “I’m Not Down” was a song that New England was putting together for their fourth album, which never came out. I think Cherry Red or one of those albums in Europe released a 4 or 5 CD set, and they included the original demo of “I’m Not Down”. As I was recording all these New England songs, I had just got the copy of that 5 CD set. I’m playing all these songs on there: “Headchopper”, the original version of “Don’t Ever Wanna Lose Ya”, the original version of “Nothing to Fear”. All of a sudden, I hear the original version of “I’m Not Down” and it just blew me away. I was singing lead on that song, but it was never released. I said, “OK, I have to do this song.” That ended up being one of my favorite songs, mostly because it’s unknown. Any of you rockers out there, you wanna check it out. It kicks ass. It’s definitely as heavy a melodic rock song as you’ll ever get. It’s great.
Of course, there’s “Hello, Hello, Hello”, which was New England’s second single. I sang lead on the original song, so I decided I’ll cover that song. What else is there? Oh, “She’s Gonna Tera You Apart”! That was on the third New England album that Todd Rundgren produced (Walking Wild). I had written that song and sang lead on it, so there you go. I gotta do that song. I played it for Chris and he sent me back guitar tracks from hell. Oh my God, they were just incredible. I was so psyched to sing lead over what he played. That was cool.
There’s “Holdin’ Out on Me”, which was New England’s version of AC/DC with this gorgeous middle section that’s all Jimmy on keyboards doing huge mellotron swells and stuff like that. “Holdin’ Out on Me” has got the original band. Me, Jimmy, John, and Gary, we’re all playing on that song. Guess who’s playing drums? Not me! (Pretty Maids’) Allan Sørensen! Allan, if you’re listening, oh my God. You sent me back those tracks and I almost peed my pants. That guys is one of the most incredible drummers, if not thee most incredible drummer on the planet. His drum tracks on that were just stellar, just amazing. That’s pretty much the idea behind all of those songs and why I chose them.
Of the songs you just listed, “Hello, Hello, Hello”, “Nothing to Fear”, and “Don’t Ever Wanna Lose Ya” all originally appeared on New England’s masterpiece self titled debut, which celebrates its 45th anniversary this year. What memories stand out to you from the writing and recording of that album?
HG: Oh my God. We recorded that album at many different studios. We recorded in New York at Medisound, where we met James Brown *laughs*. He was walking down the hall. He was recording there. We were like, “Hey, Mr. Brown! How are you doing?” His bodyguards were like, “Get out of here kid!” *laughs* That was cool! Electric Lady, we recorded there in Greenwich Village, which was just an amazing treat to be in that studio. Then, we moved everything over to L.A. We were recording at the Record Plant. It was a couple of different buildings. There’s this alleyway in between the two buildings. I’m walking down this alleyway and I hear some folks walking behind me, so I turn around and it’s Mick Jagger and Keith Richards *laughs*. Holy shit! Woah!
I mention all of this because, here we are, these young bucks who just got signed to a record deal, and we’re recording an album with Paul Stanley. The whole thing, when I look back at it, and I mentioned it earlier, was like the college of rock n’ roll. It’s like, dude, you’re here with the best of the best. You’re here with all the professors. You’re gonna learn from them. Whether it’s hanging out at the Rainbow with Paul and watching him interfaith with people and how to be a “rockstar” in public, or whether you’re onstage opening up for Rush and you’re watching Neil Peart. You gotta compete with that dude, right? The whole process was a learning process on how to be a rockstar. I don’t use the word “rockstar” in terms of the star thing. It encompasses everything. It encompasses the music that you’re playing, your attitude, your professionalism, and all of that. It was an amazing time, a great time to be in a rock n’ roll band.
How did Paul Stanley’s input impact the overall direction of New England’s debut album?
HG: That was Paul’s first time behind the board as an official producer. He had been recording with KISS at that point for how many years? He worked with (Bob) Ezrin and Mike Stone and you name it, Paul was there. Drawing from all of his experience, once again, I use that whole thing about the education of this. We’re learning from the best. He was brilliant in the studio. I’m out in the studio and singing background vocals to “Don’t Ever Wanna Lose Ya”. John’s got his lead vocal down and I’m doing some harmony parts. Paul’s like, “Hirsh, can you take that line again? It’s just a little bit out of tune. You can do better.” I do it again. “Eh, not quite. You’re almost there, but the rhythm’s a little messed up. Try it again man.” Paul Stanley’s behind the glass and he’s directing me on how to sing. How cool is that?
At one point *laughs*, I go, “Paul, I’m not getting this bro. Can you come out and maybe sing the track so I can hear what you want me to do?” He’s on the mic. Mike Stone is in the engineering chair and hits the go button. Paul sings the part. It was brilliant, perfect, first time! So we left it on the record and Paul’s singing the harmonies in the verses of “Don’t Ever Wanna Lose Ya”. *sings* “You’re driving home in a downpour.” That’s Paul Stanley. How was it to work with Paul? He was brilliant. He made us feel like rockstars, which is part of the attitude of that album. For a first album, when you listen back to that, that album had massive attitude and perfection in terms of the actual recording. There’s not an incorrect note on that record. Thank you Paul! You made good, buddy! *laughs*
There’s so many bands who are still trying to find their way on their debut. Not New England. There’s such a command to the songs, the performances, the production. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a perfect album.
HG: Thank you!
The other two albums rule as well, but that debut…to think it’s been 45 years. Time flies!
HG: *laughs* It sure does, but its been a good flight. How’s that sound?
Great! In contrast, what was Todd Rundgren’s production style like?
HG: We had, I think, 2 or 3 weeks to record that whole album. Todd was on the road with Utopia. We were tied up, so we rehearsed a bunch of songs and then drove up to Todd’s home studio in Woodstock, New York. Todd is just brilliant. I remember the song “L-5”, which is on the third album that Todd did, we had gone through most of the songs. Most of the songs were recorded, the basic tracks and overdubs. Todd goes, “What else do you got? You got any riffs you guys have been playing?” We had this riff. John hadn’t done any lyrics, but he had the guitar part and I had the drum part down. We cranked out this “L-5” riff.
Todd goes, “What do you got for lyrics?” “Well, we don’t have any lyrics.” “Come on downstairs.” That’s where the piano is in his little studio. The control room was upstairs with glass overlooking the studio. We all go and we’re gathered around the piano. He goes, “OK, we need to write some lyrics.” Within 20 minutes, Todd had written most of the lyrics to “L-5”. “L-5” are the coordinates between earth and moon, where there is zero gravity. That’s where he’s gonna build his “L-5” space station. That’s where he’s gonna live because he’s been rejected in life on earth, so he’s gonna go live on “L-5”. *sings* “I’m on my way to L-5. I want to stay in L-5.” Within 20 minutes, the guy wrote lyrics to one of the best songs we ever recorded.
“Love’s Up in the Air” is another one, which is a very beautiful orchestrated song with strings. He had a major hand in orchestrating that song and putting that together. Watching this guy work was just a joy. It inspired me as an upcoming producer, to be able to work with Paul Stanley, then Mike Stone on the second record, and then Todd Rundgren? Holy cow! That’s incredible. That’s another education. Todd was brilliant. I wish we had more time, but no complaints. That album sounds great.
A key component of the New England sound is those lush vocal harmonies. Whose idea ere they and how would the band go about arranging those parts?
HG: John, Jimmy, and I are the singers in the band. All three of us can sing lead, so when you got three singers that are like that…as far back as 1973, ’74, when the band actually started, we weren’t even New England then, we had great harmonies. The three of us could sing. That was really, really important. All the bands that we loved back then like 10cc, Electric Light Orchestra, The Beatles, you’re listening to these gorgeous three and four part harmonies. We did of recording back then our little four track TEAK recorders. We would overdub the crap out of everything.
We’ve all heard the stories of how The Beatles would record and bounce down. They’d record and get 12 or 13 tracks. We were doing the same thing at the same time as those guys were doing that, not that we’re comparing ourselves to The Beatles. We would be doing layers and layers of vocals, even back then, because it sounded amazing. Of course, the first album, the self titled album, we were working with Mike Stone. Well, Mike Stone had just finished “Bohemian Rhapsody”. We’ve all seen the movie with Queen doing all the vocal tracks and overdubbing and overdubbing and overdubbing.
As far as I was concerned, later on, when I went onto do a lot of production, that was my signature. It was stolen from everyone else, but I love doing mega-background vocals. I forgot what song it is, but I think on my first song, “She is Love”, that’s an acapella song that I wrote. I started writing that song just as an experiment because I wanted to see how many vocals I could layer. I’ve got at least a five part harmony, and I probably have over 100 voices, just of me singing on that song. It’s just thick. It gives you that choir sound.
The key to doing that is, if you’re singing one track that goes, *sings* “Oh, baby I love you.” The next time you sing that, it’s gotta be, *sings raspy* “Oh, baby I love you.” You gotta change the timbre of your voice, so then it starts to sound really, really big when you’re doing the root, the third, the fifth, and then the octave above that. That’s the vocal style that you’re hearing a lot of on all of my records. I just love that technique. Stolen from the best! *laughs*
After the split of New England, Jimmy Waldo and Gary Shea would go on to form Alcatrazz. Were you ever in the running to join Alcatrazz? If not, what did you do upon New England’s split?
HG: I was not. We were with Vinnie Vincent and we put together the band Warrior with Gary, Jimmy, and myself. This was probably ’82, before his foray into the Invasion. Paul and Gene (Simmons) were rehearsing in the studio right next to us, Warrior. They would come in and watch our band play. Vinnie was writing with them at that same time, so it was one big happy family. Lo and behold, they asked him to join the band (KISS), so that was the end of Warrior. I transplanted myself from Boston to L.A. to put that together with Vinnie, Jimmy, and Gary. Those guys decided to stay in L.A., but I needed to rush back to Boston to produce basically every band in Boston *laughs*.
I was an on call producer working a lot, and making my living doing that. I decided to come back to Boston, carry on with my production career, and over the next 3-5 months, Jimmy and Gary put together Alcatrazz. I wasn’t even there when that was going on. I loved what they did and I’m happy that they put that together. I was back in Boston, and I’m glad I did that because later that year, I was nominated for “Producer of the Year” for the Boston Music Awards, and I won that. The Boston Phoenix, which was a large music newspaper, I won their “Producer of the Year”. I sort of made my way back to Boston to become a producer. I wasn’t really playing at that point, although I did do some tracks with a band called Release, and a couple other things I did back then. I did continue playing, but mostly I was producing.
As an east coast guy, did you notice any differences between the east coast and west coast scenes? Furthermore, was the recording of the debut album the band’s first time out in L.A.
HG: Yes, that was the first time that New England was actually in L.A. The difference between the east coast and the west coast…that’s a good question! I don’t know if I have an answer because I think that, for me, you’re basically dealing with the same group people. You’re dealing with professional musicians, and that’s what we do. The L.A. scene was the L.A. scene. Boston had its own scene, which was quite different in terms of the musical style, but there were elements in Boston that were similar to the L.A. scene. There were elements in L.A. that were similar to the Boston scene. That’s pretty much what I can say about that. I didn’t really go into it like, “Boston is this. L.A. is that.” I just did my musical thing. Whatever it was, that’s what it was.
Being dead in the middle from Chicago, I couldn’t help but ask, as I’ve heard various things about each coastal scene.
HG: I do know people who say that, but I didn’t really find that. You make your own bed, so when we were in L.A., we were hustling like when we were on the east coast. Back here, in Boston, I’m still hustling like I’m on the east coast. Maybe I brought some of that L.A. finesse with me. I don’t know *laughs*.
Back in 2019, New England played some special 40th anniversary shows. Could you see the band reuniting to play any more shows in the future, or is New England no more?
HG: In that earlier time, when we were all available, John and I both lived in Boston. John’s now moved, I believe to North Carolina. Jimmy’s in Chicago. Gary’s in Florida. It’s virtually impossible at this point to put something together back here in New England because we don’t really have a home base anymore. Jimmy is so wrapped up with his productions, the different bands that he’s playing with. He’s hooked up with Giles Lavery. Giles is now the new lead singer for Alcatrazz. They’re on the road with right now with Girlschool and Lillian Axe. Actually, I think that west coast thing just ended.
We’re all now so busy doing what we’re doing that it’s gotta make sense from a financial standpoint, to get the band together up here. It costs a lot of money to put on shows. I’m not sure that we can support that at this point. It would be fun. I’d definitely say to anybody out there, it would be fun. When John, Jimmy, Gary and I get together, it’s just a freaking laugh. We just laugh our asses off the whole time that we’re making serious music. It’s always been like that with us.
In other words, if the opportunity presented itself and it made sense from a financial viewpoint, you’d all be open to it?
HG: Absolutely! That would be fun! We gotta do some rehearsing and get those chops back, those New England song chops back.
I’ve heard it from so many bands touring today, as well as promoters, road managers, and so forth, about the increased cost of touring. I’d selfishly love to see it happen. Do you remember the last time New England played Chicago?
HG: We played the Park West, and what’s that summer festival down at the lakefront? ChicagoFest?
It’s long gone, but yes, that would’ve been the infamous ChicagoFest.
HG: Yeah, we did that! I love Chicago. I was a Ludwig endorsee. Bill Ludwig III, who’s still a dear friend of mine, he would invite me to Chicago to do things with the Ludwig family. I don’t know if you remember, but every year, they would have 60 or 70 of the world’s most famous drummers come to Chicago. They would do this photograph of all of us together. It was a promotional thing to promote Ludwig Drums. I was fortunate enough to be involved in three or four of those photos. I would spend a lot of time in Chicago. Bill would invite me to Chicago to pick out a new drum set.
The World Famous Drummers photos were amazing. Could you imagine 60 of biggest rock drummers in the world in the same room at the same time? I can’t even tell you some of the stories because we’d get in trouble. Whenever Bill and I get together, we talk about those days and we just laugh. It was hilarious, all the antics that we got into. One great story that blew my mind, and I’m constantly bowing down to these rockstars I got to meet. So Bill calls me up. I’m at the Holiday Inn City Center. He goes, “Hirsh, I want to take you out to dinner tonight. Can you come downstairs at 6:00? I’ll meet you.” Great.
So I go down to the lobby at 6:00. There’s Bill. He says, “Yeah man, I’ve got the car outside.” We walk out and it’s a big stretch limo. I get in. My eyes are adjusting to the light and there’s 3 or 4 guys in the car. Bill sits in there and he goes, “Hirsh, I’d like you to meet Alan White from Yes!” “Mr. White! Nice to meet you!” “Of course, you know Carmine and Vinny (Appice).” I had known Carmine, but that was the first time I met Vinny. “Vinny, it’s good to meet you!” “And over in the corner, Ginger Baker.” Dude, are you kidding me? Here I am, sitting with these legends in a big long stretch limousine. Thank you Bill! That was some of the shenanigans that went on in Chicago, so it was always a good time.
Speaking of stories that would get us in trouble, I had to add the descriptor “infamous” to ChicagoFest because the antics that went down at those events still reverberate through the city to this day. What year must that have been?
HG: It was probably ’80, ’81.
Yeah, I bet you my parents were there!
HG: That would be wild! The Park West gigs that we did, I know that…is that place still around?
Yes, Park West is still open.
HG: Great, because when we played, that was one of the first times that they actually recorded the show live on the radio. We were told that night, it might’ve been on WLS or one of the big Chicago stations, that there were a million and a half people listening to the show. I still have that on a cassette tape here at home.
Was that ever properly released, or just on radio?
HG: Well, it was on radio and I believe that on that Cherry Red 5 CD set, the Chicago show may actually be on that. That may be something the fans want to check out.
In closing, what does the rest of the year and 2025 have in store for Hirsh Gardner?
HG: Probably more writing, more playing, and more studio stuff here at home. Right now, as you know, the record industry is completely different than what it was back then. Back then, we’d have promo people in every single city in the country. You’d go into St. Louis and the local promo guy would meet you there, take you to the radio station. Basically, I’m the promo guy, along with my buddies over at Deko Entertainment. They’re doing a fabulous job. Thank you Charlie Calv! You’re doing a great job buddy!
Musicians today, and anybody reading this, if you’re a musician, you gotta do this. You gotta get out there. You gotta promote yourself. You’re the wheels on the bus. You gotta do your job. You gotta do like what we’re doing right now. Thank you very, very much for your time and for interviewing me because this is important. We need to get the word out that, “Hey, “Don’t Ever Wanna Lose Ya”, the first single on this album, you guys need to go get this album because you’re gonna love it!” If you loved what you heard in the past, you’re gonna love this stuff.
Basically, what I’ve done is cut the path for the next 4, 5 months just to stay behind this record. I’m doing a lot of video stuff on social media. Probably within the next month, I’m going to have a 30 second to 1 minute snippet of every single song on the record with a video. Check out my Facebook page. I got those loaded on there. The New England Facebook page has a lot of stuff loaded on there. That’s basically it man. I’m trying to promote this record so people could hear it and enjoy it. I think that all of these songs, especially the New England songs, deserve an encore. That’s what it’s all about. Let’s get the people to listen to those songs. Maybe you’ll pick up the original album and compare the two.
The new Hirsh Gardner album, Third Time’s a Charm, is out now on Deko Music. For more information on Hirsh Gardner, visit www.hirshgardner.com.
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