Jim McCarty (The Yardbirds, Renaissance) Interview

When I was first approached about interviewing Jim McCarty, founding drummer for British Invasion icons, The Yardbirds, I must admit that I was initially unsure of how to go about it. Sure, all three of their guitarists (Clapton, Beck, and Page) would go on to have a hand in pioneering the riffing, soloing, and tone that makes up what we know today as heavy metal, but how about the band themselves? Well, upon a cursory revisit of their classic catalog, I must say: The Yardbirds were cranking out some heavy stuff, dude. Seriously, I’m not sure if songs like “Psycho Daisies” or “Happening Ten Years Time Ago” are any LESS proto-metal than the fare of acts like Vanilla Fudge and The Jimi Hendrix Experience that would drop soon after. Yes, believe it or not, your grandpa was a headbanger too, and this is what he was raging to 60 years ago. Only in his day, they were called rave-ups instead of mosh pits. We sat down with McCarty to discuss this concept of proto-metal, recording at Chess Records, and reincarnation.

Greetings Jim McCarty and welcome to Defenders of the Faith! How are you doing today?

Jim McCarty: I’m good! I’m sort of midway through the tour now, so I’m warmed up *laughs*.

Speaking of said tour, The Yardbirds are about to fly their way back to Chicago in just a few weeks, Friday, April 18th at the Des Plaines Theatre, with fellow British Invasion icon Billy J. Kramer in tow. What can the fans expect from this show in terms of a setlist, and could you talk a bit about this current incarnation of the band?

JM: Sure! This time, we’re trying an experiment and it seems to be working well. I’m talking through the history of the group for about half the time, and then as the songs come up, we play them. We’ve got back projections to illustrate all the things that I’m talking about. Then at the end, we play some songs to sort of rock out. It’s good! It’s a good incarnation of the band. We’ve been together for probably six years, actually, because last night was the sixth anniversary of Godfrey Townsend playing the lead guitar in the band. We’ve been the same lineup for six years.

We have John Idan, who’s been in the band on and off for a long time. He sang on the Birdland album in 2003. He’s the singer and a brilliant guitarist. There’s Godfrey Townsend, as I said. He’s played with notable people like Jack Bruce and Alan Parsons and John Entwistle. (Bassist) Kenny Aaronson has played with loads of bands including the New York Dolls, Joan Jett, and even Bob Dylan. Then, we have on the harmonica a guy called Myke Scavone. He’s doubling. He’s playing a bit of drums as well. When I’m talking, he’s playing drums on a few songs.

I’ve seen some other acts of the era go this “songs and stories” route recently, and I think it’s a very cool format when done right. In the case of The Yardbirds, there’s certainly no shortage of history to unfold, so I’m definitely excited to check it out. For fans, it’s like we’re getting the best of both worlds.

JM: Yeah, I suppose what we’re struggling with, well, not really struggling, but what is open to some people is they want more music and some people want more chat. You’re never going to get the balance. It seems to be good. I’m enjoying it myself.

Chicago is a city that’s important to the history of The Yardbirds, as you recorded some of your most iconic songs at Chess Records. Do you remember the first time you walked in the studio, and what memories stand out to you the most from those sessions?

JM: Yes, I do. Actually, it’s something I don’t mention in the chat. When we walked in, there was an old drumkit in the corner, and it had a bag of cement in the kickdrum. *laughs* I said, “Where’s the drums? Where are the drums I’m gonna use? You can’t be talking about that old kit.” And they said, “Oh no, that’s fine. That will sound good.” They made it sound good because the engineer was used to doing those great blues sessions, so in the end, it came off great. Of course, Jeff Beck played a great solo in the middle (of “Shapes of Things”) and it became one of the great psychedelic solos of all time.

So that was a bag of cement in your kickdrum on “Shapes of Things”?

JM: Yes *laughs*!

And we thought Ringo was pushing the envelope with those carpets in his bass drum!

JM: Yeah, you always tend to put something to dampen it, that’s the thing. They had a bag of sand or cement, one of the two, and it was all very heavy. It sounded great. It was a great studio and very exciting to be there.

Leading up to this interview, I was thinking about this concept of proto-metal: ’60s bands who helped pioneer the birth of metal proper come 1970. I was trying to think how far back this idea could go, and truthfully, I think the farthest back would be The Yardbirds. Having started as a blues band, what inspired the group to pursue a harder, more aggressive musical direction?

JM: The whole sound changed when we got Jeff Beck involved, because he would play off the top of his head, and he’d play all sorts of weird and wonderful sounds. He had lots of gizmos. He was interested in all sorts of electronic music. He loved all that as well as the blues. He had a great variety of sounds at his fingertips.

What events led to Jeff joining the band and replacing Eric (Clapton)? Do you recall when you two first met?

JM: Funny enough, he was recommended to us by Jimmy Page! We asked Jimmy to join and Jimmy was doing sessions in London. He was very busy playing on other peoples’ records, and he was happy doing that. He was obviously making good money doing that, so he recommended his understudy. Jeff was his understudy *laughs*!

In the case of Jimmy eventually joining the fold, was it a matter of him having time freed up at that point?

JM: I think by the time he joined, he’d done another year or so (of sessions), and I think he was a bit fed up with it and he wanted to change course and get in a band.

Perhaps the Yardbirds song that most embodies this proto-metal idea is “Happening Ten Years Time Ago”. With its fusion of esoteric lyricism and hefty twin guitars, it almost feels like a prototype for stoner metal, decades before the genre’s advent. You and (singer) Keith Relf had taken interest in mysticism at the time. What drew you into these philosophies, and ultimately, how did they impact both you and the band?

JM: Keith and I used to share a room a lot. It was a way of kicking back. We used to chat about all these weird and wonderful things like UFOs and ancient philosophies and Buddhism. We got into very deep conversations after the shows. *laughs* We probably smoked a bit of pot and lit these candles and things. It was a way of relaxing. Keith and I, we were always interested in those sort of deep things. We thought we’d write this song about reincarnation, about living before and suddenly being born again. That went into this song. We had this sort of eastern tune with this eastern riff at the beginning. Then, Jeff and Jimmy really heavied it up when we did it with them. Jimmy Page came with a great, kind of semi-heavy metal riff, really.

It’s funny you mention that about enjoying some pot. When did drugs hit the scene for The Yardbirds, and how much of an impact, if any, did it have on the changing musical direction of the band?

JM: Well it’s interesting because that was probably quite later on in our career, at least halfway through, because it was available and part of the scene. It was funny because we weren’t taking any drugs when we concocted the songs, “Shapes of Things” and all that. I remember going to California and all these people thinking we were taking acid because this sort of mad music we were making. They were all sort of freaked out at all the rave-ups. They thought we must be acid-heads, but we were totally free of it and anything like that. *laughs* It was quite funny!

Another song I want to ask you about is “Psycho Daisies”. How did that one come about, and how did you formulate your drum parts and fills for that one, being in sync with Jeff’s riffs?

JM: It was definitely an energetic thing. It’s a real rock n’ roll song. I think we based it on an Eddie Cochran style, like a heavy Eddie Cochran. Of course, Jeff had this girlfriend that was a bit of a Hollywood starlet in California, so the lyrics were about her *laughs*, this girl Mary Hughes. I don’t think I could actually physically play that now. It was quite a demanding song to play on the drums *laughs*.

The drumkit must’ve been getting paid overtime for that session!

JM: *laughs* Absolutely!

Expanding upon the last question, between Clapton, Beck, and Page, which guitarist do you feel best suited your style of drumming and why?

JM: Wow, my style of drumming. I think Jeff had the most creative part to play. I think with what he did on all those records, people remember it as The Yardbirds sound. “Over, Under, Sideways, Down”, that riff at the beginning, and loads of things: The end of “I’m a Man”, “Shapes of Things” and all that stuff. I think people think, “Oh, that’s The Yardbirds sound.” He was 80% of it, really, those sounds he used. Jimmy was much more controlled. Because he was used to playing in the studio, I think he more or less did what we wanted, which is strange. He also had great ideas, but I found it easy to play with all of them.

A staple of the ’60s were rock bands either having their own film, or appearing in one. The Beatles had A Hard Day’s Night. The Dave Clark Five had Having a Wild Weekend. The Yardbirds had Blow-Up. What events led to the band landing this part, and what memories come to mind from the filming of the band’s scene?

JM: Yeah, that’s another thing I talk about. It’s quite funny because (Michaelangelo) Antonioni, the director, got an idea of what was going on in ’60s London. He must’ve had some sort of underlying theme or idea that nobody quite understood *laughs*. I think he saw The Who break their guitars and I think he might’ve tried to book them first for the role. Our manager, Simon Napier-Bell, who was a young up and coming manager at the time, he was into movies.

He found out how much The Who wanted to do the film. He rang up Antonioni and said we would do it for free *laughs*, which is a great move, so we got the film because he wanted he wanted Jeff Beck to break the guitar. Jeff wasn’t really used to that. He was a bit uncomfortable. He only really broke the guitar if he lost his temper. It was quite well done. The film set was exactly like a club we used to play in Windsor in England. It was called the Ricky-Tick Club, and everything was perfectly, perfectly done, just like walking into the club. It was very odd.

One of those instances in which the line between reality and fantasy was blurred!

JM: It was odd. Also, he wanted the people just to stand there and stare into space. This was very strange. I don’t know what he was thinking about. I suppose he was trying to show they were all stoned or something. It wasn’t like that at shows, not at all. The kids used to go mad!

The band would perform “Dazed and Confused” live in ’67 and ’68. Were there any other songs, riffs, or ideas that Jimmy Page brought to the table that would go onto become Led Zeppelin songs? Furthermore, how far did these ever make it to being properly recorded by The Yardbirds?

JM: I’m trying to think. I think he developed a few Zeppelin songs. I think “Smokestack Lightning”, they did in Zeppelin as “How Many More Times”. It was very similar, a very similar riff. It was also interesting that he used a particular tuning for the guitar to play a bit of a folk style, which he did on that song “White Summer”. From “White Summer”, he did “Black Mountain Side” in the same sort of tuning. It was all English folk style. It was all very clever. I think he developed some of those great Zeppelin riffs later on, but he did do well on “Happenings Ten Years Time Ago”. That was great. He played a great riff on that.

Speaking of folk, I had read that you and Keith had developed an interest in folk and classical music, which led to the formation of Renaissance come The Yardbirds’ dissolution. What drew you towards that sound? Furthermore, when Renaissance started up in ’69, what were the differences between they and The Yardbirds, not just in musical approach, but in terms of operating as a band?

JM: It was very similar, but yes, we sort of followed what was going on in the way there was a lot of folky things like Fairport Convention and The Incredible String Band. They were all recording albums. That was different. Suddenly, you didn’t have to record a hit single. We did a show once with a band that Linda Ronstadt was in. I think it was the Stone Poneys. We thought, “Oh, she’s good. Why don’t we have a girl singer?” So we brought in Keith’s sister, which sort of bowed down to that folky style. It looked really good, the two of them together. We also had the keyboards, which gave the band a totally different sound altogether. It was just really an accident how we came up with our sound. We were just playing and jamming and suddenly, John Hawken, the keyboard player, started to play classical stuff. That was a big accident, but it was real prog rock, the beginning of prog rock.

A recurring theme that I find intriguing is when we look at the bands who were formed in the wake of The Yardbirds, whether it be Cream, or perhaps even more so, Jeff Beck Group, Led Zeppelin, and Renaissance, all of these bands are setting the stage for the sounds that would come to fruition in the ’70s, like a springboard for what was to follow. Heavy metal, prog rock, folk rock: These are all styles that would dominate the ’70s.

JM: Yes, it was interesting. For us, it was just a natural progression of what we’ve done. Renaissance, it became the same sort of thing. We’d go back on the road. In a way, we’d gotten so fed up with touring. We went right back into it and we thought, “Oh no, we’re back on the road again.” *laughs* The lineup of the band wasn’t used to it. It was very nerve-wracking, so we didn’t carry on in that lineup for too long.

Backtracking to Zeppelin, what was your reaction to Jimmy Page going out and initially branding the band as “The New Yardbirds”?

JM: That was fine because that was what we agreed on. Keith Relf and I left the band and they had dates in the book, so they needed to carry on playing those dates. We were fine with them doing it. We were quite relieved to be out of the group, but I think it would’ve been a bit strange if they called themselves “The Yardbirds” *laughs*. If Zeppelin was The Yardbirds, it would be odd, and I’m quite pleased they did change their name.

Yeah, that could’ve made for some confusion. Heck, as recent as the other day, my mother asked me the difference between the Small Faces and the Faces. I said, “Well, one had Steve Marriott and the other had Rod Stewart.”

JM: *laughs* Yeah! It was very odd, but Led Zeppelin was a good name! It was great. It was a really well thought out name, and of course, they were really fresh. They were great players.

In the years following The Yardbirds’ dissolution, but prior to Keith Relf’s passing, was there any talk of rebooting the band in the ’70s? Furthermore, what were your thought’s on Relf’s final band, Armageddon?

JM: Yeah, reforming The Yardbirds then, I remember we had meetings when Keith was still alive. We had meetings with Jeff and (guitarist/bassist) Chris (Dreja). I don’t think (bassist) Paul (Samwell-Smith) was involved because he was busy as a producer, but we did talk about it. Also, we did that Box of Frogs project in the ’80s. We sort of wanted to play that live, but Chris and Paul didn’t really want to do that. They were busy doing what they did, so that didn’t happen.

Armageddon, I think Keith and (bassist) Louis Cenanamo from Renaissance, he was involved. They were doing a heavy metal approach. I wasn’t really involved with them, but I did see them because I hung out in Hollywood for a bit. They were in Hollywood and got a deal with A&M. I think they took over when they dropped Humble Pie. I think A&M dropped Humble Pie and they signed them up instead. I think it was good, what they did.

Over the years, The Yardbirds’ music have been covered by countless bands. Are there any covers that stand out to you?

JM: We’re very pleased that good people like Rush and David Bowie have done “Shapes of Things”. Even Rainbow, you’ve got that t-shirt on, they’ve done “Still I’m Sad”. Todd Rundgren…it’s really nice when people do covers. It’s a real compliment to you.

Especially considering the pedigree of the acts paying homage, legends in their own right.

JM: Yeah, even Deep Purple did one fairly recently! They did “Shapes of Things”. It’s all good!

In closing, what does the rest of 2025 have in store for you and The Yardbirds.

JM: I think we’re thinking about teaming up with maybe another group and doing a tour in the Fall and maybe going down to California or Florida or something like that. We want to play an area we haven’t played for a while. I don’t know about this new show. We’ll have to see how that goes. Also, I might be doing another Beatle Fest. I did one this year in New Jersey, so I might be doing the one in Chicago. I’m not sure.

Fingers crossed, because that hotel is no more than 15 minutes up the road from me!

JM: Maybe we can meet up *laughs*!

The Yardbirds will be playing the Des Plaines Theatre on Friday, April 18th with Billy J. Kramer. Tickets can be found here. For more information on The Yardbirds, click here.