It’s one thing to interview a true icon, somebody was part of a genre defining band. Two icons were part of genre defining bands? Even this seasoned interviewer found himself a tad overwhelmed on a Thursday night Zoom call when none other than Trouble/The Skull bassist Ron Holzner and former Corrosion of Conformity singer Karl Agell entered the chat. However, once we got to talking about their latest creative endeavor, Legions of Doom, it sunk in that these are two dudes, just like you and me…dudes who recorded groundbreaking albums, and were eager to discuss their latest one, The Skull 3. In this brand new interview, Agell and Holzner reflect on the past, present, and future of life within the doom metal underground.
Greetings Ron and Karl! Welcome to Defenders of the Faith! How are you doing tonight?
Ron Holzner: I’m all good man!
Karl Agell: Awesome!
Awesome. Like most triumphs, Legions of Doom arose out of tragedy, and that is the passing of Eric Wagner, singer for The Skull and Trouble. I know the band initially assembled as a live tribute to Eric. How soon after did the ball get rolling in making it a full time band?
RH: I think it was the second memorial show. The first memorial show we did at Reggies in Chicago with Karl and Bruce Lamont sang from Yakuza and Led Zeppelin 2 and twenty other bands *laughs*. When we did the second one at the Brauer House, that’s when Scott Reagers wanted to be part of it. At that point, I’m going, “I want to play some of the COC songs and Vitus songs.” At rehearsal, we were doing some of those songs and a band dropped off the bill. I suggested, “Let’s put together a little band and open for ourselves. We’ll play all the cover songs.”
The headline for that night was The Skull, and (Trouble guitarist) Bruce Franklin was going to join us to play a bunch of Trouble songs. Right before us, Kulvera, the guys that played on Eric Wagner’s solo record, and Blackfinger, they played. It was three tributes to Eric and then we were gonna play before and play other stuff like the cover songs. We ended up playing COC and Vitus. I think we even did a Purple song. I can’t even remember that night, but we called it Legion of Doom as a joke. It kind of stuck because people liked it and festivals in Europe were also interested. “What are you guys doing? Is this a supergroup?” “Woah!”
So we did the second memorial and I was like, “Hey, do you guys want to help me finish this Skull record and then we’ll see what happens and continue as a band?” That’s basically what we started doing. Then, we started doing shows. They wanted a memorial for Eric in Germany at the Hammer of Doom Festival. We did that and flew Scotty out. Both Karl and Scotty sang at that one. We played with Candlemass and all three of the guys singing “The Tempter” at the end was amazing. It was the final thing for Eric, so we needed to continue as a band. Let’s do our own thing! We all enjoy hanging out, drinking beer together, and jamming. It was like, let’s do this as a band. It spawned a life of its own.
As the title of the album implies, this was intended to be the third Skull album. How many musical or lyrical ideas on here were established prior to Eric’s passing?
RH: Most of it. The only thing would be “Lost Soul”. That, musically, was written afterwards. That was the last song written by (guitarist) Lothar (Keller) and (drummer) Henry (Vasquez). I wrote the lyrics for that. I might have had a line or two leftover from Eric’s stuff, but all the other music was written beforehand. We arranged it a little bit more with the lyrics that I was finally able to get from the family. We put them to the songs, so most of it was written prior, but then Scotty and Karl came up with their own melodies. We had no melodies for the songs, so I gave them the lyrics and let the run with their own creative energy. They knocked it out of the park, man.
Karl, did you approach this album differently than you would another band or project?
KA: Well, first off, those were Eric Wagner’s lyrics. I’ve said it before, I had to stand in these giant shoes of a legendary singer, songwriter, just a force. It was somewhat daunting *laughs*. I didn’t want to let him or his friends or family down. Most of all, myself. I asked, “Can I live up to this?” I just tried to lose myself in it. The thing I come back to is his words have always been super powerful, going back to every Trouble album and The Skull records and his solo stuff. He writes this kind of transcendent, thoughtful, interdimensional thing where he sees into the beyond. I felt like I was being a conduit for him where he was saying his farewells.
If you read the words, if you feel the words, that’s what’s going on. He had this ability to speak around things and through things. It’s really powerful. I was just blown away I got to do it. I wanted to make sure I could come up with the best vocal melodies and delivery that I could in the moment and make it worthwhile. Lyrics like “All Good Things”, “You got to carry on.” That says it all! There’s moments of that all throughout where he is channeling himself. It’s kind of cool!
The vocal duties on this album are split between yourself Karl and Scott. How did the band go about determining who sang what?
KA: I don’t want to speak for Ron, but he was like, “I think these work for you and these work for you.” It was really uncomplicated. There was no bickering back and forth or anything. It was just like, “OK, here we go. That makes sense.”
RH: As I was arranging the lyrics for the music, as I was doing it, I could hear both Karl’s voice and Scotty’s voice, and I knew which guy would be better for singing which song as I was doing the lyrics. It really came easy. I had one song I wasn’t sure of, but it was like, “Nah.” You can tell by the performances who belonged on what song. It just fell into place. It was fairly easy *laughs*.
KA: It’s funny. Ron and I were talking and it came up somehow, stealing lyrics and lines from “All Good Things”, which is a dominant thing, “I think I’m hope and Reagers is despair.” That’s a well intentioned thought, but it’s that vibe, hope and despair.
I totally pick that up now. When this album was first announced, I was wondering if you guys were going to do a Coverdale/Hughes thing at first!
KA: *laughs* Yeah, who knows, right? I didn’t know walking into it. “Are we singing together? Is it a duet? A background thing?” “No, this is you and that’s him. That’s what it’s gonna be. Maybe live you’ll sing some of this or that, but it’s really predominantly one person or the other.”
RH: None of the songs were like…I was thinking about it. I’d like to do that, so I’m thinking for the next record, we might try to write a song that way and see how it works. I’m not sure how because both of these guys stand on their own. It’s kind of hard to do. Going forward, I’d love it. I’d love to have both of them on a song. That would be great.
KA: *sarcastically* No man! I’m not sharing vocals with him! No way, man! *laughs* Scott Reagers is the guy who, if there’s a storm going on and he walks into the room, it all dissipates. He’s the calming force. You want to be on the road with Reagers. Everything gets better when he walks in the room.
RH: He is the voice of reason. He is that guy.
KA: He is the voice of reason, correct!
RH: Absolutely, he is.
Do you remember when you two first met, and how often did Trouble and Corrosion of Conformity cross paths in those early days?
RH: We were fans and friends early. God, I became a COC fan and friend with them guys, probably the year before Karl joined, I met ’em. So when Blind came out, that album is just amazing. When they came on tour, I’d see them everywhere. I’d jump on their bus and hang with them for a few days. Me and Karl, like I said, we’re like brothers from another mother. We hit it off right away, instantaneous. It was like, “We’re related, man! Our relatives conquered countries together.” *laughs*
Karl, I imagine you were a Trouble fan?
KA: Oh yes! I was absolutely a Trouble fan. When I was in COC, look at Reed (Mullin). He’s wearing a fucking Trouble shirt on the back of Blind. Some people would say, “Hey, I hear some Trouble on the Blind record.” We’d be like, “We don’t know what you’re talking about, man!” *laughs* We were just like, “Man, these guys know what they’re doing.” As we were all hitting the circuit through the US and Europe, we’d sometimes be behind each other, and then sometimes our paths would cross. It was just awesome.
I remember we did a tour with Danzig in 1990, even before the Blind album came out, and became friends with them. Trouble rolled into town in Raleigh and we’re opening for Danzig at the Rialto Theater. I was just hanging out. I think we met before and Eric came up to me and goes, “Hey man! Wanna sing “Helter Skelter” with me? We’re gonna do “Helter Skelter” tonight!” I’m like, “Holy shit! Yes!” *laughs* Eric dragged me up onstage and I got to sing “Helter Skelter” with them. Things like that.
Rolling down, we did six weeks with Iron Maiden in 1992 and happened to have some days off in Chicago. We played Tinley Park. We parked our bus in front of Ron and his brother Bob’s mom’s house. *laughs* The tour bus was in front of the house for a couple days and we were just raising hell, having a good time. I remember going to the Trouble practice space. They were jamming Thin Lizzy songs. (Drummer) Barry (Stern) was so hungover. I remember him vomiting. Good ol’ Barry.
RH: He had a pumpkin!
KA: Yeah, he had one of those plastic pumpkins that you get candy in on Halloween! He was puking into the candy bucket next to me *laughs*. It was just awesome. All these kinds of crazy memories, hanging out at Alpine Valley with Ron on that tour. I could go on and on, but our paths would cross and we were just fast friends who enjoyed each other’s company and respected each other’s bands.
I made a connection between the two of you that I’m not sure if anyone has before. Karl, when you joined COC, the band soon found themselves with their first major label deal. Around the same time, Trouble also made their way onto a major label. How would you two describe that early ’90s period of transitioning from the underground to the mainstream?
KA: Talk about hope and despair *laughs*! No, we all had our eyes on the prize. Anything was possible. It was an interesting time and no on really knew what was happening. The best part about it was that there was a cross pollination of different genres and bands coming together. Look at early Lollapalooza. Look at all the bands who would go out. I remember seeing Soundgarden with Faith No More, or Primus with Public Enemy. It was all over the fucking place. Anything was possible, that’s how it felt. It didn’t all work out for everybody *laughs*, but it was really fucking cool.
RH: We were doing pre-production in L.A. for the first Trouble record on Def American. Rick Rubin’s working with us and we had to do an interview for RIP Magazine. The photographer was like, “You’re gonna come out and take a picture across the street. COC took a photo session here a week ago. Wouldn’t it be funny if we had you guys set up the exact same way?” It was along this fence. It was a rehearsal place in the valley, but you guys were there a week before us. So we stood along this fence the same way you guys did and had two pictures, you guys and us, in following magazines monthly, in the same spot. I don’t know if ever told you about that.
KA: No, that’s news, man!
RH: When I saw it at that fence, I saw that picture, I thought, “Oh my God! That’s the same place that COC took photos!” It was a little weird thing, but we thought it’d be hilarious.
KA: It was a really interesting time too. It was all pre-internet.
RH: We were all ready to go to the next level. It wasn’t that big of a jump as it seemed like. When we were on Metal Blade, we were touring with King Diamond, and these guys (COC) were touring with all of them before, so we were already at that level. It was where we felt we all should be at that time. It didn’t seem like a big jump at all.
There’s one song on here that does feature the vocal talents of Eric Wagner, and that’s “Heaven”. Ron, could you give us some background on this one?
RH: Eric, every record, he would send me an acoustic song and say, “I want you guys to make this heavy.” Me and Lothar were like, “What do you mean? Just make it louder?” This one song, I was like, OK, I’ll do it. He sent me the lyrics and he sent me him playing acoustic and singing. I didn’t know he recorded a bunch of them that way. He did a whole session where he sat on a stool with one microphone, played guitar and sang. He recorded it and put it out as Highdeas Vol. 1. I had no idea about this until our record was done. I had the version he sent me and I said, “OK, I want to make this into..” It was going to be on a record.
There’s a technology out there now where you can separate the vocals from the guitar, even though it’s on one track, so we were able to get his vocals. Lothar, the guitar player, rewrote the song around his vocals, so we had to record all our parts actually hearing Eric singing. We did it in the same recording session with this. It’s a fresh recording, it’s just his vocals are from a few years ago. So we refreshed his vocals and we played our music to that. It was in the same sessions as the rest of these songs on this record. That’s why it all flows together. Just getting his voice, that was a trip, man. It really was. It was emotional playing that song.
Aside from the new album, the band also released a vinyl single of “All Good Things”, complete with a B side cover of Deep Purple’s “Into the Fire”. Whose idea was it to cover this classic?
KA: *laughs* I was always slightly obsessed with Deep Purple. Ian Gillan, I can’t even be mentioned in the same sentence as him because I’m not worthy, but that guy is one of my musical heroes going way, way, way back. Hearing him sing the part of Jesus on Jesus Christ Superstar with Murray Head, I heard that as a kid. My parents had a boxset, a German pressing. In the early ’70s, I was listening to it as a wee lad. I was always blown away by it, and became a huge Deep Purple fan thanks to my sister turning me onto that and many others, like Zeppelin. I always was leaning towards some of the heavier stuff that they did. During the COC Blind forays I had with Reed, one of them involved this guy here, Ron Holzner, flying out to jam with me and Reed. It was like 2009.
RH: And Scott Little!
KA: And Scott Little, who is also in Legions of Doom. Just randomly, there was that time. We were just throwing around the idea of getting together, writing together, and wanting to do something bigger than just the single parts. One of the things that we tracked was “Into the Fire”. It was actually a pretty cool version of that that we did back then, a demo. It was just always floating around in our transom. Fast forward decades later and this whole thing that we’re doing. It was just a natural thing. “Hey man, remember when you and I did that?” “Yeah!” “Let’s do that again!” It just found its way somehow in a happy memory that we got to relive again in this form.
RH: We added it to the setlist. We’re playing it in Europe and people were loving it. We were originally just gonna do a single, one song Karl on one side, one song Scotty on the other side. But the label wanted us to do a B side that wasn’t on the record. They let us know in advance, so we were like, “Let’s record this Purple song and that’ll be the B side.” We added it to the recording session and we knew it, so we just ran through it a couple times and boom. We got it! It’s a fun song to play, so we’re gonna try and play it as much as we can.
In closing, what does the rest of 2024 and looking ahead to 2025 have in store for Legions of Doom?
RH: We’re playing New York City Desertfest on Thursday and Boston, Braintree? Is that what it’s called?
KA: Yeah, Braintree, just south of Boston.
RH: Karl will fill you in on the rest.
KA: Yeah, we’re playing Chapel of Bones in Raleigh. It’s a seven band bill with Bongzilla and a bunch of other bands. We’re second to last.
RH: It’s Belzebong, a different “bong”!
KA: Sorry! So many bongs! Jesus Christ.
RH: Bongripper, Belzebong, Bongzilla. Belzebong is awesome. They’re from Poland. We played with them and they’re really good. We’re playing with Dozer in Boston. It’s good shit, man! RippleFest is next weekend.
KA: Yeah, Friday in Austin at RippleFest, there’s a bunch of killer bands.
RH: Heavy Chicago in November, 1, 2, and 3rd! The Skull and Legions of Doom are playing!
Yep, right down the block from me at Avondale Music Hall!
RH: Neighborhood guy *laughs*!
The new Legions of Doom album, The Skull 3, is out now on Tee Pee Records. For more information on Legions of Doom, visit www.facebook.com/legionsofdoomband/.
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