Is there a better feeling in the world than talking to someone for the first time and feeling a kinship that’s been there forever? That’s how it felt speaking with Mark Sutcliffe, guitarist, singer, and founder of cult NWOBHM heroes Trespass. There may be an ocean and 40+ years of metal history separating us, but when it comes to our love for this music, those who paved the way, and those who followed in Sutcliffe’s footsteps, the feeling is mutual. We sat down with Sutcliffe to discuss the past, present, and future of one of England’s finest metal bands, Trespass.
Greetings Mark and welcome to Defenders of the Faith! How are you doing today?
Mark Sutcliffe: I’m doing good! The weather in the UK at the moment is good. I wouldn’t say that’s unusual for us, but you have to make the most of it when the sun shines. I’m having a good day. I’ve been writing some lyrics actually. I feel as though I want to get another album out relatively quickly. When you get to my age, you can’t mess about. I’ve been a bit inspired by Wolf at the Door. I think I was able to express myself a bit more. Of course, when you release an album, you get a bit of feedback as well. I tend to write in batches if I feel inspired.
Before we talk about this upcoming album, we need to talk about this excellent new album, Wolf at the Door, which I’d like to start by congratulating you on.
MS: Thank you!
It’s been 5 years since we last got a Trespass album. What events led to this latest one?
MS: Footprints in the Rock was kind of a rebirth thing. I wasn’t quite sure what I really wanted to do. One of the things about Trespass that I always loved, especially in the early days, it was relatively diverse. We did lots of different things. I guess what happened to us in a way was we existed already as a band, and we had a fair amount of material already written. “One of These Days” was one of these songs, “Bright Lights”, things like that. The NWOBHM came along and we kind of got caught up in that. I guess the slightly heavier facet of the band progressed through that. We always did lots of different things. I’m kind of back in that mode, if you’d like.
I guess, when I think about some of the albums from the 70s that inspired me so much, bands were relatively diverse in the old days. The idea that you had to thrash your way through an album from start to finish, that’s just not the way albums were. Bands had a chance to show another side, even Sabbath, with some of their great ballads and pieces of music that they might not have played every night live. It represented a different side to a band and a group of musicians.
I think what people forget, especially today due to revisionism, is that in the 70s and even into the early 80s, there was far more depth. Whether you were listening to Sabbath or Purple or even Mercyful Fate, who could be heavy and evil one second and then do “Melissa” the next, there was more room to explore in those first 12 or 13 years.
MS: You have to be a little careful. I remember back in the day, when Trespass first started to get a bit of national attention, I was really into Rush. I liked 2112 and things like that. The storytelling, the slightly epic stuff as well. A really good friend of mine recently said to me, “Are you still on to write again? You must write a one side of the record song.” *laughs* What am I gonna base it on, you know? I must admit, I really like H.G. Wells. The Time Machine is one thing I’ve always wanted to write about, but that is a bit self-indulgent, I must admit.
As soon as you said Rush, that hit me right here *points to heart*. They were my gateway metal band. That summer of 2008, when I was 9 years old, it was Rush, Black Sabbath, and Judas Priest who paved the way for me. From then on, I knew this music would be the rest of my life.
MS: The same thing happened to me when I was about 16. I met 2 guys when I started work who were a little older than me. Music wasn’t really a big part of my life up until then. I used to write poetry and stuff at school, and I was into music, but my family never even had a record player, so I wasn’t really into music. My parents weren’t into music the way that maybe some peoples parents might be. These guys leant me a bunch of albums when I first started work and I started to listen to this stuff. I thought, just like you just said, “Wow! I’ve tapped into a vein here. There’s something here that’s for me, that I can belong to.”
I never looked back after that. I happened to take up the guitar at the same time. I didn’t start playing until I was 16. When you think, “One of These Days”, I was only 20, it was quite a leap from not playing to producing a song like that. My brother (Paul), he started on the drums a time after that, so he was even younger *laughs*. I understand completely the idea of being inspired. There’s something about the freedom. Heavy rock music, in the old days anyway, was much less controlled. You could do what you like. You could experiment. People expected you too experiment!
Songs like “Smoke on the Water” by Purple, “Paranoid” by Sabbath, “Communication Breakdown” by Zeppelin, were often throwaway songs that the band weren’t bothered about. They became the singles. They became the hits! It’s funny how the deeper soul of the band was in the bigger stuff, but they produced these shorter, snappy songs. I know Sabbath didn’t intend “Paranoid” at all. They had a spare 5 minutes, so they wrote it then and there.
Anyways, I’m pleased with the review of the album. There’s been some good. There’s been some bad. But what I’m happiest about is a young guy like yourself, with your fantastic Thin Lizzy t-shirt on, what a band. I mean, I saw them several times, but that particular (Black Rose: A Rock Legend) tour with Gary Moore. It was pretty amazing. They were just amazing. Phil was the most amazing frontman, and of course a fantastic bassist, but they were diverse. There was a lot of melody. There was a lot of structure. There was a lot of storytelling. That’s the type of music that Trespass plays.
This is the first Trespass album to feature new bassist Wil Wilmot. How has his inclusion impacted the band’s sound?
MS: Wil and I go back a long way actually. Wil was in a band called Wild Alice that supported a band I was in called Blue Blud. We went down a different road. I wasn’t super happy, but you have to go where the band sort of evolves. It got too commercial. It didn’t work for me, but I met Wil during that period. His band supported us a couple of times. I didn’t see him again for years. By some weird quirk of fate, we ended up living in the same tiny village in the backwoods of Suffolk in England.
I met him at one New Years Eve gig. Wil’s a guitarist, and a very good one. I said, “Would you consider playing bass?” Wil has got a lot of energy and he wants to be involved. He attaches himself to the music. Sometimes in bands, guys enjoy being in a band, but they’re not always prepared to really attach themselves to the music directly. It might be the wrong way to say it, but hired hands; some guys prefer that role because it’s less responsibility. They can just enjoy it, and that’s great, but Wil wants to be involved. We’ll probably be doing some writing together, so that’ll be excellent.
Speaking of writing, how does Trespass go about writing a song. Does it start with a riff, lyric idea, melody, all or none of the above?
MS: I must admit that I kind of approach my songs, and I don’t know if this is the right way to do it, but if I write a dark song or a happy song or whatever kind of song, I do tend to write the lyrics first. I know other guys do this. I guess it goes back to…I won a couple of prizes at school for poetry. I always did enjoy that. I tend to come up with the words first. The music I tend to shape from the mood of the lyrics, and then it builds into something. It’s actually quite strange.
Sometimes I can have a lyric there and I can just pick up a guitar and my hand just goes to the right thing. I’ve been playing the guitar a long time now, 40 odd years. I feel an affinity with it. I really enjoy writing. Occasionally, I might come up with a riff and think, “I really like that.” Or I might already have a lyric. It’s things like that. With this next stuff we’re doing, I think I’ll work with the band more as well.
Do you usually handle the songwriting in Trespass alone or is it a band effort?
MS: We usually came up with some ideas and maybe a song. I remember some frustrating times when you’d come with a song and think, “This is a great riff.” You play it for the band and they just don’t like it *laughs*. I could remember being there a couple of times and thinking, “Oh!” The band has gotta get behind it. I must admit, the guys I’m working with now, if I play something and they like it, what’s good about perhaps being a little older…we’ve got one youngster in the band. I say “youngster”, but he’s in his mid 30s.
What’s good now…I don’t know if you hang around musicians or if you are one, but sometimes they’re slow to praise. English people are anyway. Whereas American guys are always going, “Wow man! That’s really fantastic!”, English people seem to hang back a bit. They don’t like to praise. I don’t know what it is, but of course you feed on that. If the drummer says, “What a song.”, it gives you a boost. It inspires. There’s more of that. There’s more positivity.
Some of the songs on here, such as “Ghost Pilot” and “Stranger in Paradise”, have a slight progressive sound to them. I know we mentioned Rush earlier. Growing up, were you big into progressive rock. If so, who were your favorite bands?
MS: It’s interesting because, as I was saying earlier on, we used to go down to the record store on a Saturday and flip through the albums. I’d often go home with a Yes or Genesis album. Paul, my brother who was on drums at the time, he loved Genesis. The name Trespass comes from the Genesis album.
I always wondered that!
MS: Yeah, he was very into Peter Gabriel. There was always a progressive vein. I think maybe the NWOBHM may have bludgeoned that into submission a little bit. A couple of the reviews we’ve had for the album, I guess some of them are probably by younger guys who have formed a different template of what they think metal is. We’re not writing enough fantasy. The vocalist hasn’t got a high enough voice. It’s like their template for what a metal band is is so different from mine, but we are talking about over 40 years ago. It’s a long time!
When I started playing in ’75, Deep Purple had only just split up. Machine Head had only come out a few years before, In Rock a few years before that. That period of heavy rock, when I first started, had only just happened. 40 years before that, it was the likes of Vera Lynn and Glenn Miller. The longevity of heavy rock music is one of its incredible strengths. If somebody had said to me in ’79, “Deep Purple will still be touring in 2023.”, I would’ve thought it was fantasy. I’d think, “I’ll be dead by then!” But no! If anything, they’ve gone from strength to strength, especially with their new guitarist (Simon McBride).
You know what it is? It’s the songs. It’s not the individual people. When you write a fantastic song, I’m not saying that I’ve done that, but some of these bands have written music that’s been the soundtrack to peoples lives, it’s like painting an old master. It’s like the Mona Lisa. Even 1,000 years later, it’s still something special. I think that’s what’s happened. Because this music is so strong and the bands have been able to stay alive, poor old Ozzy’s in a wheelchair now, but he still wants to gig, as long as the music stays alive and it’s good, people will want to see it.
I do sometimes think that all these older bands hanging around must be clogging up the works for younger bands coming up, but times have changed so much. There are some good new young bands around. I don’t hear a huge amount of change in the music, because I believe music is about how it makes you feel as a listener. That’s what counts. Does the music make you feel good? I guess “Highway Star”, especially the version from Made in Japan, always makes me feel good, especially during the guitar solo *laughs*.
That makes two of us! What are the biggest differences between then, meaning the late 70s and early 80s, and now for Trespass?
MS: I guess technology. Now I’ve got a template. If I’ve got an idea, I can go to my computer and really put something together then and there. You couldn’t do that so much back in the day. I can have a sketchpad there and go…I know straightaway if I’m coming up with something that’s going to work. Sometimes I had to record it on cassette and then go to rehearsal. Things evolved in a different way. That’s one of the main things, the technology, and the ability to get ideas down more quickly.
Other than that…one of the things that surprised me, I don’t know what you think, but that people could hear the NWOBHM, or at least shades of those days, in this new stuff. That really surprised me. I promise you, that is not deliberate. I just play what I play. I’ve got a certain style of playing that I stuck with. I’ve tried not to be too influenced by other bands. It’s hard not to. I did go for a period where I was listening to Metallica a lot, Alice in Chains, and things like that.
Alice in Chains, I must admit, I particularly liked. I liked the guy’s (Jerry Cantrell’s) guitar playing. I liked the way they harmonized. For some people, they didn’t quite fit into the metal scene, but I think Cantrell’s a fantastic guitarist. He really is, and very creative with it. That did influence me. I could hear Trespass in there, I must admit *laughs*. I did take on some of those ways of playing, but I probably drifted back to what’s natural for me.
It’s funny you mention Alice in Chains. They’re a band who’s constantly brought up in the “Are they a metal band?” discussion. I’ve always considered them a metal band. I don’t know how you could listen to Sabbath and then Alice in Chains and not hear the direct influence. It’s all over the riffs. They’re slow and doomy and miserable. And yes, they have those killer harmonies, but those riffs are just pummeling.
MS: That’s where it comes from!
Perhaps no Trespass song has been more impactful than “One of These Days”. What are your memories of writing that song and its subsequent recording?
MS: I wrote the lyric on a napkin at work on my break when I was about 17, I think. It was about some girl, like you do when you’re 17, that I couldn’t quite pin down. She was older than me, so it was quite difficult. Originally, I had a different riff. In fact, it was a totally different riff. Then, I was working on another piece of music altogether, which became the intro. We actually put the two pieces of music together. So you had the intro with the distinctive tinkly riff, very Rush influenced and a bit of UFO in there as well. There’s a UFO song called “Love to Love”. If you listen to the start of that song, you can hear “One of These Days”. I think even the bassline is very similar.
What happens when you’re in a band, and you’ve got influences, sometimes you start playing something and the band recognizes it in their mind, but they don’t make the link to the other song. You end up evolving along a similar line. So it was the intro into the song. For some reason, we started playing that live quite early on. We were still playing covers. We played a lot of Lizzy covers: “Emerald”, “Warriors”, “Bad Reputation”, all sorts of stuff. We started slotting our own songs in, so we put in “One of These Days” in the set.
People would come up to me afterwards and say, “Who was that song you covered by?” “That’s one of ours!” I started to think, “We’re onto something here.” We always had original stuff in the set, but I was always a believer in taking your influences forward, making them into something new. “One of These Days” must’ve went into the set in ’77, ’78, ’79 and people just liked it. I think people liked the anticipation of the intro. They know that drum fill’s gonna come and they can launch into their air guitar. That’s why it works. It still happens now! People go crazy *laughs*.
When did that single come out? Discogs says ’79. Metal Archives says ’80.
MS: We recorded it in October ’79. It was released in 1980. It was just a bunch of young guys. We all paid, I remember at the time, 25 pounds each, which is worth about 200 pounds now. It was expensive, that studio. It was a good session. I learned so much that day. It was one of those songs that, if I hadn’t written it, we wouldn’t be having this interview now.
Right on. As far as I’m concerned, it’s one of the most iconic singles of the era. Speaking of the era, what were some of the most memorable shows Trespass played back then?
MS: We signed to a very big agent, Elton John’s and Fleetwood Mac’s agent, as it happened. It was a weird time because we really did believe we were gonna get signed to a major label and major labels were interested: EMI, Chrysalis, and a couple of others. In this storm of interest, we were able to sign to this massive booking agency who immediately put us into the Marquee Club supporting a band called Girl. Phil Collen was on guitar. He went on to Def Leppard. And Phil Lewis was on vocals, who went on to L.A. Guns. There we were, these boys from Suffolk, suddenly in the dressing room at the Marquee Club. I remember going out on stage and the roar from the crowd, and the sheer temperature of the place.
It was so overwhelming. Those were fantastic gigs. Those first shows in London were just wonderful. We got to play lots of club gigs all over after that. But because we lacked the support of a major label, financially it was difficult. Obviously, you need capital to get to the gig in the first place. Even though you’re then gonna get paid for it, you still need to get there, have the gear, have the PA system, and all that. It was very difficult for us in that period, but those gigs in London have to be the ones I remember the most.
Was there any reason in particular Trespass didn’t get signed to a major label? I always found it odd that never happened, especially considering that was an era when NWOBHM bands were getting signed left and right.
MS: Yeah, MCA signed quite a few bands. This seems like the wrong thing to say, but I know Trespass were a better band than some of the bands who got signed. I’m proud of the songs. I know we had the songs. It’s such a shame, because I think with a bit of guidance, with a decent producer, I think we would’ve produced something quite special, even then album-wise. My personal view on this is that we came slightly late to the party. We were very young and naïve . We allowed the music industry to manipulate us a little bit. We should’ve stuck to our guns.
When these things happen, when something like the NWOBHM happens, if you’re even a couple of months late getting to the dock as the boat goes away…we were slow out of the dock, but we went right to the wire with EMI. The only thing that might’ve got in the way of things was they had Maiden. I’m not sure if they wanted to put another band in a similar vein up beside Maiden. They wanted to concentrate all their firepower on them. I understand that, but they strung us along for quite a long time.
Also, our second single, “Live It Up!”, was late being released. One of the reasons for that was Michael Schenker’s management wanted him to do the song as a single. It never happened. He didn’t want to do it. They wanted him to do it. As a result, we held the single back. Chrysalis Records was interested in the band, but when the thing with Michael Schenker fell through, that fell through as well. It was one of those weird things. I would’ve loved to have heard Michael Schenker play that song. I think he was having trouble coming up with something commercial. He’s one of my favorite players, wonderful guitarist.
I love Schenker, but you’re right. When I think of those first couple MSG albums, and they’re classics, “the single” is far and few in between. At least the second album had “On and On”, but aside from that, there wasn’t much commercial fare.
MS: It’s a real shame he didn’t do it. It would’ve changed my life and he probably would’ve had a hit. Later on, I do occasionally get the chance to speak with James (Hetfield) and Lars (Ulrich) from Metallica and meet them. James said, “We were working on “One of These Days” for Garage Inc., but in the end it didn’t make it onto the album.” I thought, “Why are you telling me this?” *laughs* They could’ve had a hit with that!
It’s funny you mention them, because that was going to be my next question. Of all the Trespass fans, there are none more famous than Metallica, with James up there in his battlejacket proudly boasting the Trespass logo. I didn’t know they were planning on covering “One of These Days”.
MS: When they did the O2 in London, they did open up their first encore with a few bars of it, which was something else *laughs*. They got into the riff, but they didn’t go into the lyrics. They knew how to play it *laughs*. The bass player (Robert Trujillo) was relatively new at the time. I’m not sure if he knew, but they rocked it. I would’ve loved if they played that in full.
Here we have, not just the biggest metal band of all time, but the biggest musical act of any genre of the past 35 years. When they come up to you and say how you and all those other NWOBHM bands influenced them, how does that make you feel?
MS: Proud, in a way, because they were the next generation. There were the bands who influenced me. Obviously, Lars was influenced by all the same bands I was, and then had that extra twist of influence. One of the things I’ve heard him say, and I think this is true, is the difference between bands like Deep Purple, Zeppelin, Sabbath, and the rest of them, and the NWOBHM was the NWOBHM happened side by side with the punk era.
More bands were saying, “We’ll make our own records. We’ll just do it. We won’t go the traditional route of signing first, doing demos and signing. We’ll just put a record out.” I think that influenced Lars a lot. I think a lot of the riff-based stuff, the way they riffed, there might be a little bit of Trespass in there. The thing is, all of the bands that influenced them, if Trespass hadn’t existed, Metallica may not have even happened, or would’ve sounded different.
It’s like we were saying about recipes earlier on. That pinch of salt that goes in may be a small change, but it can make all the difference *laughs*. So yeah, I’m proud of that. James is always so friendly and nice. He’s a good guy. They’re good guys. They’ve been through hell with their own problems. It’s an intense thing that they’ve been through, but it’s good to see them out on the road enjoying themselves. I hope they have a good time. If there’s any opening slots by the way, we’d love to take them!
I think I’m speaking on behalf of a lot of headbangers when I say I’d rather see Trespass open for Metallica than Five Finger Death Punch, but that’s just my opinion.
MS: *laughs* Shout it loud and clear!
In closing, what does the rest of 2023 have in store for Trespass? I know you mentioned you’re already hard at work on the follow-up to Wolf at the Door.
MS: The thing is I was wondering what I was gonna do writing-wise. I’ve decided, because Wolf at the Door has been really well received, I’m thinking to myself, “There’s no point in hanging about here. I’ve got a really good, stable lineup. I’ve got people in the band who want to write and create.” Obviously, I’m quite a prolific writer, so I’ve already got quite a bit of stuff. There’s no point in waiting. I might as well see what comes. If Wolf does manage to open a few doors, I’ll be ready with some new tunes.
It’s interesting as well for bands who haven’t had an album out every year like some bands have. You look at a band like Maiden for instance. They’re a great band. They are the NWOBHM. I’ve never been a massive fan, but they do come up with an occasional song that I think, “Wow, that really is special.” But like most bands who have been around a long time and made a lot of albums, 70% of their stuff will never be played live. It’s just album material.
One of the things I thought when I was writing Wolf at the Door, and I don’t know what you think, but I still felt I can do whatever I want here. I can have whatever guitars on this, solos, and yet it’s still quite conservative. It’s still quite controlled. Even with the freedom to do whatever you want, you are a little bit hemmed in by convention. So I think the next lot of stuff is going to be a little bit different. It’s still the riffs and subject matter that I feel strongly about, but maybe a little different. You’ll have to wait and see.
The new Trespass album, Wolf at the Door, is available now on From the Vaults. For more information on Trespass, visit www.facebook.com/trespassnwobhm.